Julian, 57, Ipswich
Occupation Financial services
Voting record Mixed over the years, moving right and recently Conservative. “The more worldly-wise you get, and the more tax you pay, the more it pushes you along that axis”
Amuse bouche Julian has twice been on a plane struck by lightning. The first time was scary: all the lights went out. The second time he was relaxed, and told the pilot on the way out, who, looking a bit pale, replied: “That’s the first for me”
Livvy, 31, Cambridgeshire
Occupation Geneticist
Voting record Labour until Starmer, now Green. Describes herself as “an old-fashioned socialist”
Amuse bouche Livvy was going to study medicine, but discovered she had a phobia of blood when she passed out during a blood test. “I would have been the worst doctor in the world”
For starters
Livvy It was my first evening out after having my baby. Julian was genial and kind. I thought he might be from a posher background than me, but we later found out we had both grown up on council estates. It just shows you shouldn’t judge before you know.
Julian Livvy was really easy to talk to, obviously intelligent. We were both the first in our families to go to university, and both see education as key to social mobility.
Livvy I had gnocchi with butternut squash. And a lemonade and lime – very outlandish!
Julian I had sea bass, which was nicely done, and a couple of beers. We both had chocolate brownie for pudding.
The big beef
Livvy Julian didn’t believe women still face discrimination in the workplace.
Julian There are very senior women in the company I work at. They’ve attained high roles in the company on merit, and that’s how it should be. It’s not the same as it was in the 70s.
Livvy Studies have shown that if you have a CV with a female name on it, and a CV with a male name on it, the male will get more interviews.
Julian Maybe there is unconscious bias – that would be wrong and I wouldn’t try to defend that in any way. The bit we honed in on was if women take some time to have family, then their careers are effectively stagnating. For me, positive discrimination is a red line, because it is still discrimination, and you might have discriminated against somebody who is better for the job. I just can’t settle with that feeling fair.
Livvy I know I’m less likely to get a job because I’m a woman, and of child-bearing age. I think I opened his mind about maternity leave a little: he didn’t realise that when I go back they don’t have to give me the same job. They can give me a different job that has the same level of importance and salary.
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Sharing plate
Livvy We agreed that women’s rights are a good thing. I just believe they need to go further and carry on. We saw the same problems, but we just had very different ways of trying to tackle those problems.
Julian It probably helped that we both have scientific backgrounds – I studied engineering – so we both applied a lot of logic rather than emotion.
For afters
Livvy We disagreed on the European convention on human rights. I think it’s a good thing. It provides guidance on the freedom to have your own views; it makes sure you can’t torture someone; you have free elections and fair trials. And the right to have a family life.
Julian We should leave. When people have been told all the way up the British courts that they can’t have what they want and they’re in the wrong, it’s a kind of “get out of jail free” card used as a means to avoid deportation or whatever.
Take away
Livvy There’s so much that brings people together, but we tend to put a magnifying glass on what we disagree on. Some of it is fundamental – if I’d sat down with someone who’d said, “This race of people is terrible”, I would have called a taxi. But there are some differences where you need to be able to see the other person’s side of the story. They’re not evil, or wrong – this is just what they’ve taken from their life experience.
Julian More people need to do this. It was a really pleasurable evening – it’s good to have someone rattle your ideas a little bit, about things you thought you were convinced of, to hear a well-argued alternative point of view that is just as valid as your own but different.
Additional reporting: Kitty Drake